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TheShooter said:
You ask how I can see the red dot from the laser. Notice the target has a black background. It sure makes it easy. How do hold so steady? Well that is trigger/finger control. You start by purchased a set of strengthening springs grip things at Wal-Mart. They cost about $8.99 per pair. Work on your grip first. Then purchase a set of dry-fire caps for a revolver and dry fire it to death. Then put a dot on the wall (orange or black works best) . And while holding the pistol completely still and fire it at the dot, make sure it’s empty first. Do this a couple thousands times. Reference the button for the laser. I'm lefthanded and they never seem to be a problem. Then go shoot your LCP
It seems it comes back down to practice,practice,practice. I'm still not sure about being able to see the thing at 60 feet outside. I know from other laser tools I use sunny days it just isn't going too work to well but what kind of distance can you see it at on a cloudy day? Also I'm not sure there is enough training in the world to allow ME to accomplish groups like that. Bravo!
 

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habanero said:
Hi Shooter!
I have really been looking at getting one of these but I just can't overcome a few problems.
*Under what conditions can you see the laser on the target at 60 ft? I shoot outside.
*How on earth can you be steady enough that far away to make a small group? The 2 times I've tried lasers I was shaking all over the place and farther away was worse.

*Is the button a problem with only 2 fingers on the grip? There has been much written on the subject here in the forum.

I'd really appreciate your input on any of these issues. John
Habanero,

I can address the 2 questions in red.

1. We do most of our testing outside but at a closer distance, typically 7 yds. We will do some testing at the 25 yd range. You should be able to see the laser under any conditions other than bright direct sunlight at your distance. If you have an overcast day (most of the time in Oregon :)) or can put the target in the shade you should be ok. In bright sunlight conditions we put reflective tape (white) on the target which works very well. Also, the laser is always easier to see when shined on a lighter color. Black will tend to absorb the beam.

2. The shaking you are seeing is always there, the laser is just making it easier for you to see. The more you practice aiming and trigger pull using the laser the steadier you will become. The instant feedback you get with the laser really helps you steady down but it does take practice. Most of that can be done at home with an unloaded firearm and snap caps. At work I use a blue gun with a laser installed for practice. One of the perks of the job 8)

Dan
 

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CTCdesigner said:
habanero said:
Hi Shooter!
I have really been looking at getting one of these but I just can't overcome a few problems.
*Under what conditions can you see the laser on the target at 60 ft? I shoot outside.
*How on earth can you be steady enough that far away to make a small group? The 2 times I've tried lasers I was shaking all over the place and farther away was worse.

*Is the button a problem with only 2 fingers on the grip? There has been much written on the subject here in the forum.

I'd really appreciate your input on any of these issues. John
Habanero,

I can address the 2 questions in red.

1. We do most of our testing outside but at a closer distance, typically 7 yds. We will do some testing at the 25 yd range. You should be able to see the laser under any conditions other than bright direct sunlight at your distance. If you have an overcast day (most of the time in Oregon :)) or can put the target in the shade you should be ok. In bright sunlight conditions we put reflective tape (white) on the target which works very well. Also, the laser is always easier to see when shined on a lighter color. Black will tend to absorb the beam.

2. The shaking you are seeing is always there, the laser is just making it easier for you to see. The more you practice aiming and trigger pull using the laser the steadier you will become. The instant feedback you get with the laser really helps you steady down but it does take practice. Most of that can be done at home with an unloaded firearm and snap caps. At work I use a blue gun with a laser installed for practice. One of the perks of the job 8)

Dan
Thanks Dan, That helps. I've just about researched it to death now just about time to decide.
 

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There have been some pretty serious misconceptions put forth in this thread.

I can point shoot just fine out to 7yd. Swell. Me, too. But with a laser on my gun, when I point shoot, I have a visual aiming reference that lets me guarantee more accurate and faster hits. The number of people who miss while point shooting at 7yd (or 5yd or 3yd) is pretty significant. Another major benefit of the laser is that you don't have to have a strong indexed position to "point shoot" accurately. I can hold my gun anywhere -- shoulder point, at my hip, over my head, even between my legs -- and still get equally accurate hits.

You can't see the laser well enough to depend on it. OK, you can't see the laser under every conceivable circumstance and environment. First, most people who complain about the visibility of the laser don't have significant experience with them. Second, even if the laser is only going to help you when lighting is dim, we know that 80%+ of domestic LE and private citizen gun fights occur in reduced lighting. If it's going to be a help 80% of the time and has no downside the other 20%, why not have it?

The laser wobbles around too much. The laser doesn't wobble any more than your bullet path. It simply shows you how big your wobble zone is, something that is hidden when point shooting or using your sights. The benefit is that, because you can see the wobble, you can better control where your shots land.

Lasers aren't useful on small pocket guns. Probably the most popular and universally accepted platform for a built in handgun laser is the S&W j-frame. It's an outstanding example of taking a relatively difficult to shoot gun and maximizing it's ability as an effective fighting tool.

Shooting someone beyond 7yd will get you in trouble with the law. This is utter BS. I'm not aware of a law in any state that specifies the distance at which lethal force is justified. If someone 10yd or 15yd or 25yd away from me is shooting at me, I'm equally justified in defending myself. If I can hit him from that far away, he can hit me. The law may require me to retreat, but only if I can do so safely. I don't consider rounds flying at my head safe. YMMV.

As someone who has been using lasers on handguns for more than a decade, my experience has been that the only people who don't like them are ones who don't understand them and have little (or no) formal training in how to capitalize on their capabilities. The reality is that there are things you can do with a laser on your pistol that you cannot do without a laser on your pistol. You don't want to spend the money, hey, that's your choice. But suggesting that it's a waste of money is simply trying to justify your decision.
 

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ToddG said:
Another major benefit of the laser is that you don't have to have a strong indexed position to "point shoot" accurately. I can hold my gun anywhere -- shoulder point, at my hip, over my head, even between my legs -- and still get equally accurate hits.
That's how I practice with my LCP the most. Shoot from my stomach or side, gun tucked close to my body, relying on point shooting and the laser. Lots of brass hits my face and I'm dirty as heck, but I figure thats how I'll be shooting this gun if I'm forced to use it...
 

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ToddG said:
There have been some pretty serious misconceptions put forth in this thread.

I can point shoot just fine out to 7yd. Swell. Me, too. But with a laser on my gun, when I point shoot, I have a visual aiming reference that lets me guarantee more accurate and faster hits. The number of people who miss while point shooting at 7yd (or 5yd or 3yd) is pretty significant. Another major benefit of the laser is that you don't have to have a strong indexed position to "point shoot" accurately. I can hold my gun anywhere -- shoulder point, at my hip, over my head, even between my legs -- and still get equally accurate hits.

You can't see the laser well enough to depend on it. OK, you can't see the laser under every conceivable circumstance and environment. First, most people who complain about the visibility of the laser don't have significant experience with them. Second, even if the laser is only going to help you when lighting is dim, we know that 80%+ of domestic LE and private citizen gun fights occur in reduced lighting. If it's going to be a help 80% of the time and has no downside the other 20%, why not have it?

The laser wobbles around too much. The laser doesn't wobble any more than your bullet path. It simply shows you how big your wobble zone is, something that is hidden when point shooting or using your sights. The benefit is that, because you can see the wobble, you can better control where your shots land.

Lasers aren't useful on small pocket guns. Probably the most popular and universally accepted platform for a built in handgun laser is the S&W j-frame. It's an outstanding example of taking a relatively difficult to shoot gun and maximizing it's ability as an effective fighting tool.

Shooting someone beyond 7yd will get you in trouble with the law. This is utter BS. I'm not aware of a law in any state that specifies the distance at which lethal force is justified. If someone 10yd or 15yd or 25yd away from me is shooting at me, I'm equally justified in defending myself. If I can hit him from that far away, he can hit me. The law may require me to retreat, but only if I can do so safely. I don't consider rounds flying at my head safe. YMMV.

As someone who has been using lasers on handguns for more than a decade, my experience has been that the only people who don't like them are ones who don't understand them and have little (or no) formal training in how to capitalize on their capabilities. The reality is that there are things you can do with a laser on your pistol that you cannot do without a laser on your pistol. You don't want to spend the money, hey, that's your choice. But suggesting that it's a waste of money is simply trying to justify your decision.
Todd, I agree with virtually everything you said however I think the "shooting beyond 7 yards will get you in legal hot water" paragraph requires someting of a caveat. While it is true there is no legal restrcition on how close or far an armed civilian must be before lethal force is justified, your actions will be heavily scruitinized regardless and the further away you are from the attacker/s, typically the more legal second guessing is extended. 25 yards is the exception at which most good guy/bad guy shootings take place and the opportunity to flee at 7 yards or less versus 25+ yards is greater, albeit every situation is different. Having said, regadless of what the distance the shooting occurs, it pretty much comes down to what a DA, Grand Jury or Jury is willing to believe. Being sensitive to your surroundings, i.e., being able to assess danger in advance also diminishes the propsect of a long distance shoot and allows (maybe) other options. And that is something more folks need to concentrate in my opinion in addition to basic marksmanship. Bottom line, anything the armed citizen can do to NOT have to fire his or her weapon (without becomming a statistic) is a good thing because after the shooting (justified or not) is when the legal horror begins, emotionally and financially. Distance can (empasis on "can") buy you some time and may keep you out of legal trouble.
 

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7 yards 25 yards, I myself have carried for 46 years, never had to draw my weapon. common sense comes first to my mind BUT I can run pretty good yet at age 65 but when I am with my Family, wife and son, I choose not to run, they can't , so I will defend myself and family be it 7 yards or 25. Let the DA sort it out, for I will be the only one who will be telling the story as to what happened, the BG will no longer be alive.

Not all shootings, probably most don't end up in court. I think sometimes we put to much emphasis on that to. FWIW IMO. In Indiana the castle doctrine act enables one to defend himself beyond his own property boundaries, if one feels his life is threatened. Again common sense plays a big part. I myself feel I can decipher who is truly a bad guy . Not puffing my chest out here either but at age 65, I have lived a good life and full retreat in not in my style...
 

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I think I better provide more information. I was shooting inside my pole barn. I was out of sunlight and the wind.

I see CT Joe is in this forum. He might not know me in this forum but he is a standup guy. Joe and I have talked on the phone several times.

Reference the S&W 624 CT this is the best I've been able to do. I really like the larger S&W CT grip. It's always a toss up which pistol is going to work. I also have a CT on a Glock 19, 22 , 23 and 17L . I wish they had a master on/off switch on the Glock models. Maybe someday CT will make my wish come true.





The Shooter
 

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ToddG said:
There have been some pretty serious misconceptions put forth in this thread.

I can point shoot just fine out to 7yd. Swell. Me, too. But with a laser on my gun, when I point shoot, I have a visual aiming reference that lets me guarantee more accurate and faster hits. The number of people who miss while point shooting at 7yd (or 5yd or 3yd) is pretty significant. Another major benefit of the laser is that you don't have to have a strong indexed position to "point shoot" accurately. I can hold my gun anywhere -- shoulder point, at my hip, over my head, even between my legs -- and still get equally accurate hits.

You can't see the laser well enough to depend on it. OK, you can't see the laser under every conceivable circumstance and environment. First, most people who complain about the visibility of the laser don't have significant experience with them. Second, even if the laser is only going to help you when lighting is dim, we know that 80%+ of domestic LE and private citizen gun fights occur in reduced lighting. If it's going to be a help 80% of the time and has no downside the other 20%, why not have it?

The laser wobbles around too much. The laser doesn't wobble any more than your bullet path. It simply shows you how big your wobble zone is, something that is hidden when point shooting or using your sights. The benefit is that, because you can see the wobble, you can better control where your shots land.

Lasers aren't useful on small pocket guns. Probably the most popular and universally accepted platform for a built in handgun laser is the S&W j-frame. It's an outstanding example of taking a relatively difficult to shoot gun and maximizing it's ability as an effective fighting tool.

Shooting someone beyond 7yd will get you in trouble with the law. This is utter BS. I'm not aware of a law in any state that specifies the distance at which lethal force is justified. If someone 10yd or 15yd or 25yd away from me is shooting at me, I'm equally justified in defending myself. If I can hit him from that far away, he can hit me. The law may require me to retreat, but only if I can do so safely. I don't consider rounds flying at my head safe. YMMV.

As someone who has been using lasers on handguns for more than a decade, my experience has been that the only people who don't like them are ones who don't understand them and have little (or no) formal training in how to capitalize on their capabilities. The reality is that there are things you can do with a laser on your pistol that you cannot do without a laser on your pistol. You don't want to spend the money, hey, that's your choice. But suggesting that it's a waste of money is simply trying to justify your decision.
Your statement is just as self serving justifying your purchase.

It is all up to the individual.

Maybe Ruger should just integrate a laser into there design if it is a incomplete product and by pass the middle man....Mo Money, Mo Money.
 

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ToddG

Pal, I'm squarely with you on this.

I've noticed a fairly pervasive tendency on this forum to stubbornly insist the LCP doesn't need any better sights than Ruger put on the gun. It's a point and shoot gun. Instinctive shooting technique is all that's ever required, ranges are arms-length, no need at all for any precision. Ever! If we needed a better sighting solution for the gun, well, Ruger would have put it on there! Gotta admit I find this logic baffling. Sure as shootin', when one tries to shoehorn preconceived notions into something as dynamic and unpredictable as a gunfight, they gonna get seriously surprised.

I'm curious. How many of you guys who think the LCP doesn't benefit from a better sighting setup knock the sights out of your HK's, Glocks, XD's, etc, etc.? Heck, you don't need them for point shooting inside 7 yds so why have them on there? They might hang up on the draw, you know. Someone clue me in here.

T
 

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gcwimmer said:
Your statement is just as self serving justifying your purchase.

It is all up to the individual.

Maybe Ruger should just integrate a laser into there design if it is a incomplete product and by pass the middle man....Mo Money, Mo Money.
Ouch!

There have been quite a few good arguments for having the laser, both qualitative and quantitative. The only argument against it is "it's not worth the money." Yet when presented with an economic argument, justifying the investment, it doesn't seem to matter to you. I guess I don't understand why you find none of these arguments persuasive.

Just in case you are truly interested about why Ruger would not just force customers to buy it with a laser, I will try to give you some good business reasons. First, a company does best what it knows how to do. Many companies have become troubled by trying to expand their business into areas where they lack technical and marketing expertise. Second, there is more than one brand of laser available for the LCP so technical and price competition is available. That is usually perceived as a good thing for customers.
 

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gcwimmer said:
Your statement is just as self serving justifying your purchase.
Do you really think so? I listed a number of tangible benefits of having a laser. I can probably list a dozen more if you'd like to hear them. I'm not justifying anything, I'm pretty confident that (a) I've got the knowledge and experience to make an educated assessment of the product and (b) there are things I can do with a laser on my gun that I can't do without one.

It is all up to the individual.

Maybe Ruger should just integrate a laser into there design if it is a incomplete product and by pass the middle man....Mo Money, Mo Money.
No question, it's up to the individual. But some make more informed choices than others. Calling the laser a "waste of money" isn't very informed.

As for why Ruger didn't incorporate the laser, I again wonder if you're being serious or just throwing rocks to see what windows you might break. Ruger makes its money selling guns. Adding a laser (and $100+) to the cost of the gun would drastically impact their market and their sales. Some can't afford a laser. Some don't know they exist (I'd guess that's the vast majority of LCP buyers). And some think they're just too skilled in "gunfighting" to need a laser.
 

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The size of this weapon and the less-than-stellar sites are exactly why I will be putting a CT on my LCP! There are so many reasons posted and they are all valid and I can't fault Ruger for the sites they chose, they are appropriate for the weapon. I can't understand why someone would argue against the laser, other than they don't want to spend the money. Point-and-shoot at 7 yards? Are you standing still with a good stance focused on a target or on uneven ground, moving and scanning the environment? What about low-lighting in an apartment where you have family members behind walls? I want to know where my bullet is going before I start shooting. The ideas about using the laser for home training are great and will save me some $ at the range. Thanks for the great ideas on that guys!
 

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I have owned lasers in the past, and i can also vouch for their usefulness as a secondary sighting system / trigger control development aid.

I don't own any lasers now, but i will buying one in the future for no other reason, then the fact that the lcp has no real sights that are usable at night.

Case point --

if i were to be knocked down at night by a thug, i most likely couldn't even see the gun much less the tiny steel pimples that are called sights.

now couple that with the element of suprise, adrenaline rush, and the stress factor of knowing that this moment may be your very last.

Could you pull it off in under a few seconds??? Probably not.


Draw weapon, align laser, and bingo, the problem is now solved.

If one didn't possess the laser, drawing the weapon up to eye level would be difficult at best, and impossible at worst.

Besides, Mr. Murphy seems to consider me his best friend on most any occasion.

So, that is why i will be buying a laser for the lcp, and it is a necessity IMO for any small handgun or revolver with a limited sight picture that is carried at night for self defense to possess one.


best regards, ;D
x
 

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Well I was asked,what would I like for Christmas. Fore most I,m a car nut. Out of all the things that I could of suggested,"building a replacement race mtr" the 1st response out of my mouth was a CRIMSON SITE lazer for my LCP. She wanted an explanation,not that she really cared,just curious as to what it was. Well folks ,Im a happy camper. Its put away till Christmas, but I understand what its all about,and all of the positive aspects of having it,eventually on my LCP. I consider myself fortunate of having the opportuntiy to be getting one so soon. Cant wait. Im excited ,dont care what any of the nay sayers have on their minds, Ive got mine. Mokan
 

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xenicintelligence said:
Now, this would be a true case of overkill. :eek:

iF only ruger would put a picanny rail or two on the Lcp!!!!

That would be sweet.




best regards,
x
Uh, I don't get it....where is the overkill? ;D
 
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