[SandraKaye]

In another thread, it was mentioned that if you happen to discharge your weapon in a defensive situation, that you need to 'Call your attorney and tell the police nothing until your attorney is present'. With this in mind, I now carry the business card of a gun law attorney. I have slipped it right in behind my CPL. Any thoughts on this? Why is it that when a person asks for their attorney, the LEOs seem to percieve them as automatically guilty of some infraction because they 'attorney up'? Is this just a tv or movie perception? Has this happened to anyone?
We carry a weapon because we can't carry a cop so I also carry the attorneys card because I can't carry the attorney.
The Washington Arms Collectors association that I belong to provides it's members with the listing of local gun law attorneys.

This is my choice. Take a look at my attorneys qualifications and then ask yourself if your regular attorney is the right one for you.

http://www.rainierlaw.com/CM/Custom/TOCFirearms-Law.asp

OK...Yes, it's Sunday and the Seahawks are down 3-0 and it's really snowing so what else can I do but to generate some discussion...

SK ;D

 

[Sandy]

When something traumatic happens, most people try to justify what they have done by talking their heads off. In the process, you may say something that can be misconstrued or worse, be incriminating. LEOs will try to get you to talk because that is how they are trained.

Your job is now to avoid losing your freedom and everything you own or will own in the future. The perp who just tried to rape you will suddenly become the lead in the church choir. Avoid spilling your soul by suddenly having chest pains that will require hospitalization and at the same time call that lawyer. DO NOT SAY ANYIHING about what happened until your attorney arrives. If you call 911, do not say "I shot someone".
Instead, say "there has been a shooting" and give the address and your name.

 

[HowardCohodas]

The "Never Talk to the Police" lectures by a lawyer and police officer.

http://elsiepeaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=378.0

 

[DesertPunisher425]

In another thread, it was mentioned that if you happen to discharge your weapon in a defensive situation, that you need to 'Call your attorney and tell the police nothing until your attorney is present'. With this in mind, I now carry the business card of a gun law attorney. I have slipped it right in behind my CPL. Any thoughts on this? Why is it that when a person asks for their attorney, the LEOs seem to perceive them as automatically guilty of some infraction because they 'attorney up'? Is this just a tv or movie perception? Has this happened to anyone?
We carry a weapon because we can't carry a cop so I also carry the attorneys card because I can't carry the attorney.
The Washington Arms Collectors association that I belong to provides it's members with the listing of local gun law attorneys.

This is my choice. Take a look at my attorneys qualifications and then ask yourself if your regular attorney is the right one for you.

http://www.rainierlaw.com/CM/Custom/TOCFirearms-Law.asp

OK...Yes, it's Sunday and the Seahawks are down 3-0 and it's really snowing so what else can I do but to generate some discussion...

SK ;D

I think the entertainment industry portrays ELO's a little inaccurately. No one makes a judgement that you're guilty because you're getting an attorney. In all actuality the LEO usually makes a judgement on the likelihood of your guilt rather quick; your look, attitude, demeanor, way of dress, body movements... Everything about you goes into an initial determination toward likeness of guilt (call it increased or decreased suspicion). Situations obviously vary; in a traffic stop, they usually have you stopped for something minor and are making judgements as to if there may be something more they can make from the stop (weapons charges, drug charges, warrants); requesting a lawyer immediately will usually make him think you're either paranoid, or depending on the assessment he's already made, promote him to dig harder for better charges. Questioning for a crime; no matter if you are a suspect or not, you're somehow connected to a serious event and they realize getting a lawyer only indicates that you're fairly smart.

But, I do want to note that while I've not seen someone per-say "talk their way out of a ticket", I have MANY times witnessed someone not receive a ticket when they could have gotten one. There are many reasons why, but what they all have in common is being polite, not lieing and having no history of offenses. I have, many times seen people talk their way into a ticket though... or even talk their way into a search, which resulted in an arrest.

But, as has been said many times; when interacting with an LEO, admit to nothing, but be kind, polite and respectful and NEVER lie ("do you know how fast you were going?" "I'm not really sure officer"). Give them all of your basic information (name, address, phone number, DOB-age), a contact number to a family member if needed... if you have an attorney on retainer, might not hurt to give them that information so they know to expect him when he comes to see you.

 

[Match10]

...NEVER lie ("do you know how fast you were going?" ....

Me: Yessir.

Officer: Well?

Me: Don't YOU!??

 

[Richard X]

Sandrakaye this is a very sound idea--several years ago a good friend of mine--high up in LEO told me that EVEN in a defensive shooting expect to go to jail (99% of the time), at least until the situation is figured out, this is to protect you and the responding LEOs--just pray you do not go into general population until your attorney can get out of there

After the fact call the police place your weapon where it can be seen, off your body, keep your hands in clear sight and say nothing but your name, let that attorney talk for you

Remember pistols are for defense, try to get out of the situation by all possible means but keep the thugs at a distance IF possible, but use force do not become a victim!

 

[DesertPunisher425]

Sandrakaye this is a very sound idea--several years ago a good friend of mine--high up in LEO told me that EVEN in a defensive shooting expect to go to jail (99% of the time), at least until the situation is figured out, this is to protect you and the responding LEOs--just pray you do not go into general population until your attorney can get out of there

After the fact call the police place your weapon where it can be seen, off your body, keep your hands in clear sight and say nothing but your name, let that attorney talk for you

Remember pistols are for defense, try to get out of the situation by all possible means but keep the thugs at a distance IF possible, but use force do not become a victim!

Placing the weapon off your body and/or where it can be seen is not advisable. This means the pistol is no longer under your control. There could be various by-standers, curious people, friends of whoever you just fired on. Allowing that weapon to no longer be under your control is perhaps the worst thing you could do with it. RETURN the weapon to it's holster and cover it back up. When officers arrive on scene, keep your hands and arms extended down and out at approx a 45 degree angle (NEVER put your hands up without being told to do so; this indicates guilt), palms toward the officers and immediately (as in before they even have a chance to say anything) inform them you are carrying and where the pistol is on your body. Do not make any motions toward it, do not lift your clothing to expose it. If the officer asks you to show them or remove it from it's holster, kindly and calmly state "sir, to ensure the safety of all parties involved and prevent someone from interpreting the situation for hostile action, could you please disarm me yourself?" If he tells you again to do it yourself, follow instructions exactly as they are given. The way it will likely happen is, they will instruct you to put your hands on your head with your fingers interlocked, then turn around with your back to the officer(s) and slowly walk backwards following their instruction. At a certain point, they will tell you to drop down to your knees. They will then come up and handcuff you, one hand at a time, behind your back with your palms facing out. They will then search you and in the process, disarm you.

Do not touch the attacker's weapon. Slide it away from the attacker with your foot if he is still alive. Otherwise, keep some distance between you and the scene.

Again, the reason you keep your pistol on you is to ensure you have positive control over your weapon, the reason you keep it covered is so by-standers will only see the attacker's weapon; one weapon, laying next to a body says "I got killed attacking someone". Add another weapon in there, in your vicinity, anyone coming up on the situation will think "they had a shoot out; must both be bad guys" and they will report that to the 911 operator. Police are very proficient at safely disarming people, and if you identified yourself to the operator (see below), the officers arriving on scene will be well prepared for you.

Operator: 911, do you have an emergency?
You: Yes sir/ma'am, my name is John Doe and there has been a self defense shooting, send the police and an ambulance.
Operator: What is your location?
You: Corner of 5th and Main, I am 5'9", 43yrs old, bald, Caucasian, average build, wearing blue jeans and a long sleeve button down white shirt with thin blue stripes, I will stay in the area and await the arrival of emergency personnel.

It is now your choice to either answer no more questions and hang up, or answer no more questions and stay on the line. Either way, do not answer anymore questions (exception to this is if they ask you to repeat your location or physical description). Remember that the conversation is being recorded, and remember that when the officers arrive, you need to have your hands as described before; not with a phone (unknown device to the officers) to your ear. So if you stay on the line, once you hear the sirens or see the lights, hang up, set your phone down and position yourself as previously stated.

Do not admit you were involved in the shooting... for that matter, don't admit to anything, other than giving your personal information, keep your mouth shut and wait for an attorney.

 

[kraigster414]

IMHO this thread should be a sticky. Thanks to those who contributed. Everyone should read.

 

[LittleLiver]

SK, thats a great idea, I'm gonna do just that, look up a local attorney that can help me in that type situation and get his card. DP425 not much to say, but that is some very sound advice. Thx

 

[BigBen66]

Thanks for the info,Rules everyone should go by.

BigBen

 

[SandraKaye]

SK, thats a great idea, I'm gonna do just that, look up a local attorney that can help me in that type situation and get his card. DP425 not much to say, but that is some very sound advice. Thx

Hey LittleLiver... You appear to be a neighbor of mine. Take a look at the website I posted of the Gun Law attorney over in Bellevue.

Sandra

 

[Footin Shool]

Excellent post DesertPunisher, Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, are you a LEO or an attorney?

Dick

 

[DesertPunisher425]

Excellent post DesertPunisher, Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, are you a LEO or an attorney?

Dick

Neither really...

Military that has worked extensively in a somewhat modified LEO capacity in a specific field of civilian law enforcement... We'll leave it at that.

 

[HowardCohodas]

At a certain point, they will tell you to drop down to your knees.

Some older folks and even some not so old have difficulty being on the knees. I have Osgood-Schlattner lesions on both knees even though I am far, far from being a teenager. Somehow, I cannot imagine saying back to an LEO, "I have Osgood-Schlattner lesions," but being on my knees is sometimes almost impossible. :-[

Any ideas?

 

[DesertPunisher425]

At a certain point, they will tell you to drop down to your knees.

Some older folks and even some not so old have difficulty being on the knees. I have Osgood-Schlattner lesions on both knees even though I am far, far from being a teenager. Somehow, I cannot imagine saying back to an LEO, "I have Osgood-Schlattner lesions," but being on my knees is sometimes almost impossible. :-[

Any ideas?

Well, that could be rather difficult then. Maybe say "sir, my knees are shot, I'll land on my face!" And hope for the best! With older (mid-40's, plus) people, they might be more understanding. Now with someone younger, in say, their 20's or 30's... it might end up being a painful encounter.

 

[Redhawk4]

I wouldn't advertise carrying a card for an attorney who specializes in gun law/shootings etc., although I think carrying it secretly is an excellent idea. If other people know about it, or you let slip to the police that you are calling a gun law attorney, card in hand dialling 1 800 SHOTSOMEONE (sorry couldn't resist adding that), minutes after a shooting, it could make it look like you were just itching for an opportunity to shoot someone and imply some kind of premeditation. Some liberal prosecutor could have a field day with that. Perhaps you need to get the same attorney to do some completely disconnected case work for you, boundary dispute or debt collection so he's just your attorney . I still think the overall idea is excellent as the information would not be easy to find on the spur of the moment or when you are in a holding cell. Perhaps we should ensure a close friend or family member also has the info in case we can't get to it. I just think we need to think the situation through in advance and make sure we have rehearsed how best to communicate this information to LEO's and others in a positive way.

 

[maybejim]

If you have a carry permit, I don't think carrying a lawyer's card is or will be interpreted as anything other than good sense and proper planning. If you are carrying a gun you should be carrying it loaded. That could be interpreted as "looking" for trouble by idiots and anti-Constitution gun haters. Anything you do can be used against you so I would recommend doing prudent things that indicate you are a prudent person. A loaded gun and the phone number of a lawyer that works with gun related cases are prudent things.

 

[Redhawk4]

I think we're both right it just depends on who is doing the interpreting, so by keeping the info to yourself you don't have to worry how it will be interpreted.

 

[Project7Studios]

Do you all have any advice on contacting a gun law attorney in my area or anyones area for that matter?

I have some worry about cold calling lawyers in the phone book (anyone still use those?) asking "Ummm, if I like shot someone... Can like... you like make sure im innocent and stuff?" Hahaha definately not in that manner but I felt as if some good humor could be added to this serious subject. ;D

 

[j-starr2000]

Do you all have any advice on contacting a gun law attorney in my area or anyones area for that matter?

I'd check with some of the organizations that offer CCW classes. The last organization I took to renew my CCW had an instructor that was a defense attorney that as it turned out, shot IPSC around the same time as I did, and we have common friends. I still carry his card with me.